Beam Gun - And what needs to be done

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by fisT, Sep 19, 2014.

  1. fisT

    fisT New Member

    Now a lot of people don't feel as they can do much with the beam gun, but let me tell you why it needs fixing.

    Assume that we have a guy that can actually aim and track pretty well.
    The Beam Gun isn't OP on its own, track someones head perfect and sure they will drop pretty fast but no faster than with other powerful guns.

    The problem arises when you combine the Beam Gun with another gun, say the tazer shotgun, rail sniper, cryo sniper. You just take one easy shot, instantly switch to the beam gun and finish them off in a heartbeat. They don't have any time to react after the initial hit.

    Sure enough, good players won't be "out of position" so to speak to get nailed by this combo as easily as new ones, but when they do it's really just an unfair nearly instagib choice.

    Shoot once with the tazer shotgun, they can barely move and easy to just point and hold until dead.
    Once with rail sniper from any position a quick flick and then a really quick finish with Beam Gun.
    Cryo sniper, quick and easy finish.

    If the beam gun had a slight (charge?) delay upon switching to it this problem would be solved.

    Effect: People would have to instead shoot first with the beam gun and then finish off with a more powerful gun which not only gives the victim noticeably more time to react to a bad situation, it also requires more precision in aim and timing of the switch based on health left on the enemy on the part of the shooter.

    Plus, a sniper/shotgun finish-off is more flashy.


    Thoughts?
     
  2. itisjustjeff

    itisjustjeff Member

    I really don't see an issue.
     
  3. fisT

    fisT New Member

    The issue is that it's extremely powerful and easy. Have you tried it? It's the easiest way to rack up filthy kills by far
     
  4. LebronJames

    LebronJames Active Member

    The Beam Rifle has always had an issue where it needs another gun to really shine, but quick switching in any game where you can take a powerful one hit weapon, and a fast accurate weapon is a "problem" because it artificially lowers the TTK from the intended duration.

    I don't think there is really a way to fix that issue. Unless you made the Beam Rifle also count as a sniper so you can't take the Rail Sniper with it.
     
  5. Rehtael

    Rehtael Member

    I really don't see the issue. Wounding the enemy with one weapon then finishing them with another isn't a bad strategy by any means, and is commonplace in a lot of oldschool shooters. TF2, Tribes 2, Doom(s), etc. and even in modern shooters like Planetside 2 and Halo (Though I guess Halo is starting to be a pretty old franchise too...) Point is, the wound and finish tactic is nothing new and is nothing OP.
     
  6. Ogretoe

    Ogretoe New Member

    I really don't agree with OP at all.
    Tracking with the beam rifle is laughingly easy, period. No need to slowdown or pre-damage.
    Unlike the lightning gun from quake3 it has no acceptable limit to its range, and it has a considerably wide hitbox already from level 3.
    I don't consider it a mere finishing weapon like the shotgun is.
    It doesn't have any reason to not be your first draw.

    I don't consider double-weapon tactics to be an issue, it's a skill. But I don't believe for a second that beam rifle needs weapon juggling at all. The beam rifle is my first problem with the game

    If it had a shortened range or a short clip-load, it would absolutely be a simple dps to finish off a fight after you've dealt your burst damage.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 20, 2014
  7. Rehtael

    Rehtael Member

    I wouldn't say that quite so much, as the DPS of the beamgun can be outdone. That said, if you can track heads with it, it's pretty powerful. It's a great weapon for those who have great aim, and a poor weapon for those with poor aim. Though the altfire really needs some work, there's very few times I feel a need to use it, and when I do, it usually hits the edge of an invisible wall and wastes weapon energy.
     
  8. fisT

    fisT New Member

    The DPS of the beamgun can easily be outdone, and if you, Ogretoe are saying that the beamgun is OP even without a burst damage before then what is it with it?

    Also yeah Rehtael I don't know what the point was with the secondary fire of the beam gun, but its great at instagibbing turrets. I don't think it needs a rework though, otherwise it would make the beamguns damage potential bigger than the other guns
     
  9. Rehtael

    Rehtael Member

    I say it needs a rework because the hitbox of the secondary fire is so big that 90% of the time you're going to hit the very edge of something near you and damage yourself. It makes the effectiveness of the weapon completely dependent on the map, which while for some weapons makes sense, you wouldn't take most sniper rifles indoors, for this you end up having a secondary that's more of a liability than an asset.
     
  10. fisT

    fisT New Member

    You're completely right there. Even a slight angle makes it explode in your face.
     
  11. Ogretoe

    Ogretoe New Member

    It's even worse.
    This is a very slow game, tracking is not difficult as has been repeatedly implied.
    I've been 30 hours playtime and I can't find any answer to what its vulnerability could possibly be.
    Typically, erratic side-stepping is the cure, but the wide-beam makes this ineffective.

    Also, my phrase "a simple dps" was not a phrase to state beamgun is the highest dps in the game. It was a shorthanded way to call the beamgun a constant-fire weapon. Something fast, consistent, gets at least one hit as soon as possible and as easily as possible.

    The fact that a constant-fire weapon is not the highest DPS does not dismiss it's damage as an issue.
    Constant-fire reaches low thresholds sooner than slow burst weapons, and this is an advantage that is usually countered with a low DPS, either by raw-value or by practical utility (If a game has very high mobility it generally becomes more difficult to get enough hits with a constant fire weapon, so it needs higher damage. Like Strike Vector, players are very small and extremely erractic)
    Weapon juggling being 'an advantage' isn't enough. It should be necessary for success. And it is necessary on all other weapons. I.E the only thing dangerous about a sword-wielder is when he is smart enough to use his gun too.

    Another thing that has to be noted, DPS is not the only issue. In this game, any received damage whatsover resets the health regen timer.
    As far as harassing regen on an enemy you are chasing, this gun is a monster.

    The beam should terminate after a moderate distance. Maybe at that point it would be fair for it to have a better alt-fire too.
     
  12. Rehtael

    Rehtael Member

    "I've been 30 hours playtime and I can't find any answer to what its vulnerability could possibly be."
    Low DPS. The beamgun is NOT a quick-killing weapon, it's simply accurate.

    "The fact that a constant-fire weapon is not the highest DPS does not dismiss it's damage as an issue."
    It's certainly NOT constant-fire. Have you ever used it?
    Actually I think that's the biggest question here. Have you ever used the beam rifle?

    "(If a game has very high mobility it generally becomes more difficult to get enough hits with a constant fire weapon, so it needs higher damage. Like Strike Vector, players are very small and extremely erractic)"

    It DOES have high mobility if you know how to play and use the environment to your advantage.

    "Weapon juggling being 'an advantage' isn't enough. It should be necessary for success."
    Shotguns, Sniper rifles, Hells and Swords would all disagree. You shouldn't need to juggle weapons because it's a team game and you should be working together with your teammates to deal damage anyways.

    "In this game, any received damage whatsover resets the health regen timer.
    As far as harassing regen on an enemy you are chasing, this gun is a monster."

    You know what other guns do that? The hell, anything explosive, shotguns, turrets, explosives, fire, etc.

    "The beam should terminate after a moderate distance. Maybe at that point it would be fair for it to have a better alt-fire too."
    So they should get rid of the ONE good thing about the beamgun according to you.
     
  13. Ogretoe

    Ogretoe New Member

    constant-fire does not mean "no reload".
    You're getting incredibly defensive and grasping at things that aren't critically supportive to your argument. Not to mention just plain wrong.
    Considering I had already explained what constant-fire means in the post you responded to.

    Not to mention this argument has become nothing but "it is, it isn't". And embellishing your statements with 'Have you ever USED the beam rifle?!' doesn't make you more right.

    And this game is not high-mobility. Really, any other comparison out-does it.

    I don't know how you can say far range is the weapons only good-side. Lightning gun in q3 had a limited range, and it was still a crucial weapon to most tactics because how easy it was to quickly get a little damage out of your opponent with it.

    And nothing harasses regen as well as the beamgun because it is the easiest to get a hit with at any range, because it is a constant-fire weapon without accuracy fall-off over distance. Constant-fire meaning, you click and drag the stream onto someone instead of placing one good shot.
     
  14. Rehtael

    Rehtael Member

    "Not to mention this argument has become nothing but "it is, it isn't". And embellishing your statements with 'Have you ever USED the beam rifle?!' doesn't make you more right."
    I'm genuinely asking if you've ever used it. Have you?
    Also, I did back up my points with examples by comparing the beam gun to other weapons within the game.

    "And this game is not high-mobility. Really, any other comparison out-does it."
    While it's certainly not the new Tribes game, this game has a lot of available jumps and dashes, runspeed is fairly nice as well. It's a run and gun third-person shooter, where the immobile are picked off with ease.

    "You're getting incredibly defensive and grasping at things that aren't critically supportive to your argument. Not to mention just plain wrong."
    That's your opinion. A strange opinion considering your argument is literally "[You are] just plain wrong."

    " Lightning gun in q3 had a limited range, and it was still a crucial weapon to most tactics because how easy it was to quickly get a little damage out of your opponent with it."
    That's a different kind of weapon for a different purpose in a different game. The beam rifle is meant to be the long-range, lower DPS, more consistent alternative to sniper rifles. That's like going into any shooter and saying the sniper rifle shouldn't work so well at range. That's the point of the weapon.

    "And nothing harasses regen as well as the beamgun because it is the easiest to get a hit with at any range, because it is a constant-fire weapon without accuracy fall-off over distance."
    Bullet Hell and well placed turrets do. So explosives. And so what if that's a quality to the weapon? That's why I run the Olympian chestplate.

    "Constant-fire meaning, you click and drag the stream onto someone instead of placing one good shot." The game still measures the damage in ticks, so it's basically a very fast firing bullet gun.
     
  15. LebronJames

    LebronJames Active Member

  16. Rehtael

    Rehtael Member

    Interesting... It would be nice to have in-game damage numbers, for sure. It's hard to make informed purchases when "Less damage" is basically all you get between PickupHell and StandardHell. Thanks for the spreadsheet!

    I think that's where our discrepancies lie. I'm talking about level 5 beam gun in comparison to other level 5 weapons.
     
  17. LebronJames

    LebronJames Active Member

    The main problem with looking at DPS as evaluation for how strong something is this. The Auto Shotgun dwarfs everything but has a monstrous reloadtime and limited range. It also fails to mention this lengthy reload time is reduced by a significant amount each level to only around 1~ second at level 5.

    So the numbers for DPS are pretty much useless, and don't actually give any useful information IMO.

    That being said. I want to reiterate that the main issue with quick switching is that it artificially lowers the time to kill from what is regarded as a balanced number to an unbalanced number.

    Another problem with this is while head shoting someone with the Rail Sniper then immediately switching to Beam Rifle to finish them off is entirely skill based, and as a result gives the weapon combo a high skill ceiling.

    As the base level of skill, or the skill floor, rises in the community will this combination of weapons prove to be to good? Is it already too strong? These are important questions, and thankfully this game has already provided answers as to what could be done to fix it.

    Simply disallow the Beam Rifle to be taken with any Sniper's Rifle, but where does removing 'OP' weapon combos end? Are there other answers? I do not know.

    The Beam Rifle, and Rail Sniper by themselves are fine, but together I think they are too strong in a good players hands.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 21, 2014
  18. Rehtael

    Rehtael Member

    Couldn't agree more, Lebron.
     
  19. fisT

    fisT New Member

    Lebron, this is what I meant. Shoot well and these combo's take your opponent off guard faster than you can blink. And it's not just the snipers, same goes for shotguns. I still think a very slight recharge could balance the beam rifle out a bit in comboes. This doesn't stop you from using the beam gun first, but this way at least you'll know whats coming.

    That being said these combo's are the ones I enjoy even though people are hating on me using them ingame. So I will use them :)
     
  20. TJ

    TJ Human Head Staff Staff Member

    weapon combos are an advance player thing. so i have no problem with players finding good combos that are quite powerful, we intend this
     

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